Fundamentalism is a worldwide phenomenon today and it affects the practice of both styles of Capoeira. The following posts were written based on an experience I had both as practitioner and as a researcher trying to work with inter-style and inter-group cooperation in a event a while ago.
I believe that all styles, groups or lineages have an important contribution to make upholding the inner principles of the practice and its cultural diversity; provided that they do not incur in hegemonic and/or fundamentalist behaviours.
I also believe that everyone’s approach on Capoeira, or any discourse underpinning one’s practice is worthwhile, given that these people or discourses do not try to devalue other people’s approach or cornerstone principles adopting quantifying arguments; as one practice cannot be ‘more’ traditional or ‘more’ authentic than somebody else’s.
Note: All names used in this article are pseudonymous. My intention in sharing my experience is to illustrate the difficulties in establishing inter-style and inter-group cooperation only.
Fundamentalism and Capoeira
Part One: The (lack of) Cooperation Issue.
The westernisation of Capoeira, in my understanding, complicates inter-style and inter-group interaction in which it sharpens competition, alienation, and segregation, hindering mutual comprehension. Westernisation threatens the core principles of Capoeira, as the art spreads worldwide. Without mutual comprehension amongst groups and counterparts it will be impossible, even adopting traditionalism, to prevent the distortion of Capoeira’s inner concepts; for traditionalism, as is known within the art today, is already a consequence of westernisation (see The Brazilian People’s Wisdom).
What I recently experienced trying to work with inter-style and inter-group cooperation in Capoeira is an evident example of how fundamentalism is compromising mutual comprehension and preventing cooperation within and amongst styles and groups.
I contacted ‘Luiz Eduardo’, asking to go to his event as a self-funded researcher and work with a few interviews. After explaining my research goals a couple of times, he agreed that I could be there without having to pay for the event and work with my interviews. I have also previously contacted Mestre Paulo, one of his guests, about doing an interview during the event, and he was okay as well.
At the opening I was properly introduced, although without any mention to my research and my goals at the event. Maybe I was expecting more cooperation because I believed we had common interests in Capoeira and social inclusion.
Probably a conversation we had during the opening night, about a Capoeira Angola workshop I was organising with a non-Brazilian Mestre, made them back up in their will to cooperate with my research.
In my second night there Mestre Paulo was very kind and we chated for quite a while, but no interview was given. So, I asked whether we could work with the interviews in the next day or not, as I knew they would be busy over the weekend, and was interested in Paulo’s ideas. Luiz Eduardo told me to call them by lunch time to set a meeting in the afternoon.
The other guest, Mestre Antônio Carlos, is known by been a difficult person to deal with, so I approached him personally and respectfully explained about my research asking for an interview. In spite of that, his answer was: “ – I’ll think about it…”. In a very cold, short, and snob way, confirming his reputation. So I decided that it was not worth it to ask him again.
Luiz Eduardo did not picked my calls at the time set, and then, thirty minutes before the beginning of the activities he called me back saying that he was sorry but he had fallen asleep, and that we could try something at his centre at that night. As he knew I would be teaching somewhere else that evening, I figure that no interviews would be given, and gave up.
One of my students attending the event knew why I was there and asked overtly to Mestre Antônio Carlos if he thought that different groups could cooperate in developing social inclusive projects with Capoeira. His answer was: “ – Never!”.
Cooperation can happen in many levels and diverse forms, not necessarily mingling and/or interfering with each other’s lines of work in Capoeira. However, this was apparently not so obvious from his socio-centric perspective. Yet, Antônio Carlos seemed to believe that only that specific approach of Capoeira is fit to promote social inclusion and education. As if only that school or style could account for the social inclusion of all excluded minorities.
An hegemonic approach trying to address problems of social inequality and diversity intolerance; what an irony.
The whole situation left me with a few questions that I would like to share with you:
- Why a research on Capeira and social inclusion did not received any attention from those ‘socially engaged’ Mestres?
- Would all their students agree with their attitude or there would be at least a few people interested in an (inter-style) exchanging of ideas towards social inclusion?
- Why it is so difficult to develop inter-style and inter-group cooperation in Capoeira?
Why such a reaction? Some mestres probably protect their groups in that way from the diversity that was created by Brazilian and foreign teachers so that they could have a unique identity. I don’t know why having an identity becomes so important for some, but there are also those who say that capoeira is just… “what we eat” and I like this definition more :)
What is a group identity in capoeira and why is it important? Is it an extension of “a mestre”? And what is “a mestre in capoeira”?
I totally lack the contextual knowledge (language, culture – which are an integral part!), but can this unwillingness to cooperate be just due to the word “research”?
As for the question about students, of course, there are different students. Among those who are interested in capoeira as a game, not as a work-out (and I believe majority of us are like that) there is a genuine interest in what other groups like. But I think we might miss a fundamental question here. What about personal inclusion? (if there is such a term…)
Hey Z,
Thanks for your words once more!
I would like to bounce back one question to start with: Are these Mestres protecting their groups from diversity as a form of diversity intolerance, or are they protecting their share of the market?
About been scared of the word ‘research’, although this would already be informing us about a few things, the strange part with me was that I had contacted the hosting Mestre ahead and he said he agreed in having me there to conduce my work, but somehow things changed as soon as I get there. It was good any way as I could experience a situation that made me think about these things even more in depth.
Groups are promoting social inclusion, for sure. However, for many of them, I have been calling this ‘the paradigm of the first inclusion’, as after been included in a group, a person might be absorbing values that won’t lead s/he to a broader sense of social inclusion. I’ll catch up about this in April, hopefully.
Axé!
Eurico
i dont know if i can reply on this but,
they are protecting their share of the markt. like What can be the problem with diversity? the watering down of the pure capoeira? The pure regional is already a watering down (or adding other juices into to water aka unpure water (same for capoeira angola or anything played today)
and even the “back in the days” capoeira was unpure because every player had his own style, set of moves, toques and what ever.
or maybe that is what pure capoeira is…
now i’m drifting away from market share i’m sorry for that.
and again i will use the same example.
I am allowed to get payed by another group to teach at there batizado/event/workshop but i’m not allowed to do the same for them.
IF you are a true purist then you wont go teach at there events. why take their money. They see it only as one version of the truth and you know THE truth…
Oi Espada,
I have a similar thought. The ‘pure’ Capoeira has ever been organic, inclusive, interdisciplinary and intercultural. But this makes difficult to those ‘owners of the truth’ to protect their share of the market as well as to conquer further as they convince other people about their truths.
The problem with purism is that being too centred in their culture, they believe everyone should take classes and attend their talks, but they are not so keen to exchange ideas and/or to attend other people’s activities. (I believe this comment suits your questions/comments on why are you allowed to be paid for your classes in other groups but not to invite them to yours)
These are a couple of reasons why I think purism plays against the principles of the art (which I believe to be as I said organic, inclusive, interdisciplinary and intercultural).
Yet, I would like to stress that these characteristics does not jeopardise the Brazilian origin of Capoeira, on the contrary, they are tuned to the origins of the Brazilian society; not perfect but certainly much more open to miscegenation than the majority of other societies born from imperial colonialism.
Axé!
Eurico and Z,
Difficult questions. I would like to believe that your example concerns just these two individuals, and not the entire capoeira community (actually I know for a fact it isn’t so). Possibly “older” mestres are more conservative and rigid and simply not engaging with this new movement and the social context – did they give you the impression they saw it as something for “whimps”?
As for the students, I think you can find capoeiristas who are into this kind of thing but only after discovering the true totality of capoeira. Most of them start because of the excercise and coolness factor, and discover the other sides of capoeira later. I think capoeira is a good tool for social inclusion, but it shouldn’t be the initial approach maybe – too “hippy” and “soft” and far away from the image capoeira usually has – flying kicks, pumping music etc. Might be a disillusion!
Inter-style and inter-group collaboration… I think this is matter of different personalities being attracted to different styles of capoeira. SHyer, softer people will enjoy Angola more (maybe?!), tougher, more confident students might lean towards regional. In the end I think it might be more a clash of characters than of styles. There have been comments on previous posts regarding “awkwardness when playing someone who has a different game” – Maybe this goes for the bigger picture as well.
I hope it makes sense what I say! Would you say you have more “problems” with regional purists?
Axe,
DonAna
Hey DonAna,
I’m not quite with you in some of your arguments here… Except for one: most people are not aware of all potentialities of Capoeira at first.
However, I don’t believe one could find such a clear match of personalities with styles as you put. On the other hand, there seems to be a match of stereotypes and personalities as Capoeira spreads and is translated (or maybe understood) to suit a western mind set and the ruling system. In this situation differences begin to be understood as opposing each other; something not necessarily true, as most times they could be understood as complementary instead.
As for the regional purists they behave as any other purist, averse to diversity. Again it’s difficult to understand when there a worry with the characteristics or when the attitude is a matter of market reserve.
Abraço!
Hi,
My name is Espada and i have read some of your articels and i think we are going to be great friends ;)
I’m in capoeira for about 12 years now an bump into the same walls as you.
And i think i figured out why there is such a bad cooperation between diffrent groups and styles.
But 1st i want to say that westernisation in my opinion is a wrong term to define what is happening to capoeira. i call it kapitalisation.
but i’ll explain myself.
i dont know if next to capoeira you have another income but imagine you dont. Imagine that every student is X$. You want to keep those students inside your circle of capoeira so they spend there money on you. Or other people from your group so their students spend there money on you.
I see this in my group someone asks a question and the mestre does not know the answer. So he makes up an answer. Imagine him telling that student he does not know. 1. the student maybe will stop thinking his mestre knows all (and dont act as if mestres and others dont get deified by a lot of students up to e certain level and even by some higher leveled studnets) and 2.the student will mabe go look for the answer in a book or worse, another group. and he’ll maybe stay there.
Loss of money, loss of income.
So keeping people inside your small (every individual or limited group circle is small) circle of capoeira is important.
now how do i think this is about money more than about ego. easy. i’m allowed to be a geust at an workshop or batizado of another group if i get payed but i cant organise an event for someone from another group. i can gain from other groups but cant let them gain…
what would you care if your student leaves your group because he wants to learn an other style of capoeira that you cant give him. or he gos to another teacher for berimbau skills that you dont have…
And that is wat makes capoeira so powerfull. the accumulated know-how of all people participating. at least for me :)
Espada,
A few other thoughts on your comments… I don’t know where do you live, but I’ll be in Europe this term, and we might be able to catch up at some point. I’m looking forward to that.
As I replied to your comment above, I think we are thinking alike, the exception here is that I differentiate that much capitalisation from westernisation, as the ruling paradigm in the west is the capitalist one.
I agree with you that the heads of the majority of our groups are not westerners, but they are adapting the practice of Capoeira to this market’s logic. Some of them were playing at the streets, but now they teach in gyms and/or cultural centres only and mainly in developed western countries. But this does not have to be the only way, the Movimento Novo and the Urban Ritual are examples of people engaging with other forms of Capoeira practising.
I’ll leave here now… But I think with more participation this discussion can raise lots of different matters and viewpoints.
Axé!
Eurico
I From Belgium,
I’ll send you an email an we can chat.
I’ll show you around our capoeira circle as much as i can.
I teach a floreios/strenght training class and you are always welcome to join or even teach some moves if you feel like it.
Espada,
I’ll be in Europe within a few months. First we’ll hold an event here in which I’ll hold some classes and give a talk, then I’ll probably be visiting a social project involving Capoeira in refugee camps in Syria (if you or anybody know of other projects like this in Europe please drop me a few lines) before arriving in Sweden for more classes and a talk as well.
Everyone is welcomed to attend both events, here and in Sweden. Details for the event here are online at http://www.capoeira.org.au and soon about the Swedish event at http://www.cordao.se
I hope to catch up personaly with you guys at some stage.
Axé!
Eurico
Hello all,
oohh, I like this thread, some great ideas here! I agree with Espada that ‘capitalisation’ is a big issue for mestres who depend on Capoeira for their income. Whole Capoeira groups have been destroyed over the money issue. But I also think ‘westernisation’ is also an issue especially outside Brazil.
In Brazil, other mestres and schools are known amongst Capoeiristas and there is discussion about their style, their knowledge, their conduct in the public and their philosophies.
Yet in many other countries there are one or two groups in the same town and that is all most people know. So each group thinks they’ve got the holly grail of Capoeira knowledge. Understandeable, because they don’t have a comparison. Also helps build the group’s identity, and ‘belonging’ and ‘identity’ are so important for people.
When Capoeira started in Germany 15 years ago, it was mostly about exclusion – class fees were exorbitant, Capoeiristas were arrogant and secretive, and knowledge was guarded so as to be cleverer than someone else (may have to do with the German attitude of wanting to smartass people, too :-).
Those people still abound, they only judge my body movements, humiliate me, they can’t understand that my style is neither Angola nor Regional, but ‘Capoeira’; they see themselves as elites. This exclusion business has always put me off most classes in Germany.
We are fortunate in New Zealand that there is such a good relationship between groups – which might reflect a New Zealand egalitarian attitude and/or just pure necessity (not many students around). We’ve got people from many different schools attending our classes – and we’re glad to be able to provide them with a ‘home’.
For me, it’s the only way forward
Canarinho,
Nice to see you here in the blogsphere!
I’m with you when you say that westernisation encompass much more the capitalist market’s logic. Whilst Capoeira is been translated quickly to conquer larger market in developed countries is also been adapted into the western mindset, a phenomenon that goes much beyond the ‘capitalisation’ only. Dualism, Manicheism, and top-down hierarchy increases in Capoeira as it’s adapted to western mindset. The idea of knowledge is power, as you mentioned in early days of Capoeira in Germany is an example.
But I would like to leave a question. Ganga Zumba, a camarada who have been participating in our discussions over here, stated that cooperation out of Brazil is easier due to the scarcity of groups, etc. You say that you are not sure whether NZ reflects in Capoeira an egalitarian attitude or is just pure necessity.
So, in the second case, cooperation takes place only until groups are settled? Than the competitive mindset would take over? Is that so? What do you think?
Abraços Canarinho! Até breve!
Eurico
Eurico,
this discution is very important. I agree that westernisation is capitalism. But that isn’t bad. Not every body can work on their lovely thing. So, who can do it is (should be) happy. But there are some humain factors: greed, selfishness, envy. We bealive that in the future, the students will understand that and will be in the groups that are more “mind-open”. And the “closed” groups will ended.
We wait the 2nd part.
I dont use the term capitalism because that aways makes poeple start some capitalism vs communism discussion.
I also dont like the term westernistaion because it makes it look like the westeners are the onse making trouble. But at the head of every major group are neve any westeners…
In my opinion Human factors dont exist (if by human factors you mean human nature)
greed, selfishness and eny all are learned behaviours resulting from scaresity.
If you did not mean human nature then cancel the this las remark :)
Gabi and Espada,
Thank you both for your participation. I hope to see you around more often.
As I mentioned above, westernisation, as I see it goes beyond adopting a capitalist paradigm only; and it compromises some of the core values of Capoeira as well. Please check my reply on Canarinho’s comment.
Abraços!
Eurico
Hello all,
It is a very interesting discussion, and I do agree with Espada that is has to do with the fear of the mestres of losing students and money. Also like Canarinho said, most groups in Europ do think they have the holy grail of capoeira, because they are the only one in town.Regardless if those mestres are totally wrong, most of the students do not care, because they are all more than willing to belong to this ‘exlusive group of capoeira-practioners’.
Furthermore I believe there are more reasons for the arrogant attitude. Often European mestres and professores are the so-called ‘airport-mestres’ whom became mestres on the day that they arrived in Europe, and those are very poorly educated in the history and traditions of capoeira, and also have never learned to discuss capoeira,in contradiction with most Brazilian groups.
Furthermore, I believe that also the ‘hierachic system’that is included in capoeira is due to the fact that Mestres (both Brazilian as not-Brazilian) often are not willing to listen to students or to discuss capoeira with researches because they are on the bottom of the piramid, also professores are sometimes not heared. Some mestres believe what they tell is the truth, so it ain’t possible to discuss this or to ask questions about because they are mestres. Students just have to listen in their opinion and are not allowed to ask.
I have done research in Brasil and the Netherlands about capoeira and I was surprised about the arrogance of the mestres and professores here, so the story of Eurico is very familiar. For myself I believe that it is important to discuss capoeira, and to talk about the differences, social inclusion and so on, and to visit other groups, only so capoeira will survive.
The closed capoeiragroups that are still very common here in the Nethelands have forced me to quit capoeira because I was totally stunned by the arrogant attitude that a lot of mestres and their instructors and students have. It is almost impossible to discuss and ask question about capoeira. I only do practise it when I am in Brasil, because there I am free to play and discuss with those mestres, regardless of my state as just a student. Those mestres that I know encourage discussion and they would be very glad to have all those participants of this forum with them. I feel that capoeira in the Netherlands has a lot to do with money making and not with capoeira. Eurico good luck with your research.
Marreta,
Nice one! Good contribution.
Although this is an issue I believe I’ll be approaching it every now and then (I’m currently writing a post on Capoeira and Paulo Freire’s libertarian concept of education, spot on this matter), I would like to share my view on hierarchy with you.
However, before, I would like to call attention to the other side of the coin. Usually the instructor (teacher, Mestre) is one risking his/her financial situation when organising events, and/or even running classes to build a group.
S/he begins from scratch and very often without much help, or with some support but still holding total responsibility. Sometimes we (heads of groups) face a lot of criticism from people who came and go more often than they stay and cooperate; this is rarely the case of constructive critics followed by engagement of its author helping to solve the matter. For this reason, I have been saying in my talks and workshops that those who criticise should bear in mind that in order to give most people the chance of choosing how many times a week (sometime even less) they will attend their groups’ activities, the head of the group (instructor, teacher or Mestre) is giving a life time of full commitment, even when the groups’ activity are not sufficient to make a fare living.
Having said that, I really believe that the real role of a teacher is to be a source of inspiration and guidance. We don’t really teach, we inspire people to begin their journey to then, afterwards, serve as a source of wisdom and companionship. If one wants to save time and energy within the Capoeira world (sometimes in life in general) s/he seeks for the teacher’s guidance. However, the students are the ones with the free will to decide whether or not they’ll follow the advices. That’s part of my viewpoint on hierarchy.
Finally, please don’t leave Capoeira because of these kind of people! Capoeira needs more open-minded people to oppose the corporative values that are been forced to it as natural. I’ll be in Sweden soon for workshops and talks, and I would love to meet you there.
Thanks for your support!
Axé!
Eurico
Oi Eurico,
I am absolutely horrible, I had to respond, haha but don’t worry:) , I really need to get some sleep, capoeira is an addiction.
It is absolutely true what you wrote about that the professors or mestres. most of the time they begin from scratch, and it is indeed the students that decide. You can see right now that student are leaving groups or even quitting with capoeira because they have found out that the attitude of the mestre or professor is not like it should be, and that they desire a mestre that is a source of inspiration and guidance.
Like VoVo, I love your saying of Iran, and furthermore, capoeira is, what we all make of it.
ps Netherlands does have those tall men and women with blond hair like Sweden, but it can be found a bit lower, that tinyweenie country next to Germany:) Maybe we can meet in the future:)
Oi Marreta!
Muito obrigado pela sua atenção e suporte! I must confess that all this discussion led me to write another post on ‘the politics of Capoeira’ through Paulo Freire’s concepts of education. It’ll be coming up soon.
What I meant about Sweden is that maybe we all could have a two fold event there: meeting everyone who’s been discussing issues here for a debate after my talk over these issues and playing some good Capoeira together. How does that sounds to you? I’ll come up with dates as soon as my trip schedule is confirmed, ok?
Abraço!
Eurico
It is 6:42 in the morning, I have not been sleeping last night since I had a lot to do but as I got ready to sleep I checked my emails for the last time and there was an email from Eurico, asnwer to my email; but at the end he had given me the tip to check this post about fundamentalism and I did it, I read the post itself and the comments followed. and it took me something like 1 and a half hour.
I have a point here going this much in detail.
In cultures like Iranian culture which I understand and feel deeply and I see more and more simmilarities between it and Brasilian culture, it is very important to listen to, respect and be loyal to your master, teacher, father or simply any body who is older and more experienced than you.
What I want to say is that, though I am from a new generation and I have always been against having just a single master and going step by step after him, and I have been living and studying in the western society for a while, this has not been out from my blood and without being aware of it, I just did what I felt like my master wants me to do.
I think the whole point can be wrapped in this sentence of you:
“Some of them were playing at the streets, but now they teach in gyms and/or cultural centres only and mainly in developed western countries.”
(in answer to Espada’s comment.)
I don’t want to be in-respectful to any body but I think it is a problem of calling some people as masters without having the criteria of being a master.
A Master for me is enlightening, humble, wise, patient, under a continuous process of improvement and learning himself.
Dear Eurico what I have learned from Capoeira is a memory of our workshop in Västerås in last Summer,
Angola, Regional, people from China, Denmark, Sweden, Scotland, Chile, Pakistan and …
all together with respect and peace.
We have a saying in Iran, we say:
The one who knows and knows that knows will win the whole,
The one who knows but doesn’t know that knows, wake him up!
The one who doesn’t know but knows that doesn’t know, he will reach his goal sooner or later,
BUT
The one who doesn’t know and doesn’t know that doesn’t know, will stay in his double ignorance for ever.
one more thing before morning sleeping, maybe next time you can just use some observation techniques instead of honest interviewing technique and just write down your observations of your small chats instead of asking them politely for their permission and contribution in a valuable scientific research.
I think you frighten them by your research word. ;)
I wish you best luck in all aspects of your life.
looking forward to see you here in Sweden
Panda
This discussion and sharing of opinion about the future of Capoeira is reaching high standards.
I feel myself very small, but beacause I love so much Capoeira I would like to put some words on this “Roda of words” : when the road in front of us is not clear , for whatever the reason, we should do what the sailor does ,that is to say we should look for the Lighthouse. We are lucky because we have two of them : Mestre Bimba and Mestre Pastinha.
Mestre Decanio asserts in his books ( “Heranca de Pastinha” & ” Heranca de Mester Bimba”) that both the African Philosophy and Logic of M.Bimba and the Spirituality of Mestre Pastinha must be in our minds to be never forgotten.
M.Bimba was the Sun that enlighted and paved the way to develop Capoeira while Pastinha was the alter ego of the Giant, the small David that alerted us against the warship of the Golias of Capoeira. Pastinha protected the roots of Capoeira and the geniality of Mestre Bimba.
without Mestre Pastinha Capoeira today would be just another new martial art, in a market dominated by the Asians.
He was the guard of freedom and creativity.
The ‘Chamada” was the simbol of the friendship : the open hand upward to remember that we are all brothers under the guide of our
teachers. The symbol of Peace among capoeiras with good will .
…Capoeira is a way of life, a philosophy based on freedom , cheerfulness, respect and cooperation…”
If one of this factors are missed , when I came out of a Capoeira event I always realized that Capoeira was not there, and I did not come back.
So the “closed groups ” will end as Gaby and Predador say.
Axe’
VOVO’
Hey Sandro!
You are right about high standards! This is getting too complicated for me! :))
This intellectual roda encourages to think, but at the same time I realize that I JUST WANT TO PLAY.
True liberation starts within and I want to believe that even mestres can be changed (what an irony! we always blame them for creating rigid rules and being authoritarian, but it’s us who conform to them). They themselves need more love and inspiration from their students :)
Zarina
Ola’
Zarina,
yes it is true: when love springs out of my soul the Mestres realizes it soon , usually they are the most open ones !
There is another sort of irony nowadays , if we think about the time when the Africans were shifted on the portuguese ships to the other side of the Atlantic. Inside those holds the slaves found themselves chained close to each other and they might be ancient enemies, coming from whatever the villages , randomized , speaking different languages , having different legacies and religions and differents thoughts as well. But they unifed to fight against slavers ,without too many words : they made deeds not words and they escaped to the quilombos. Today the historical situation “APPARENTLY” is different and some of them take the luxury to forget the calvary of their ancestors, and they do words not deeds, or deeds to defend personal ,materialistic intrests.
Yes, today .more than ever we need to love our honest Mestres and we want to give them inspiration : this is our task and commitment as learners ( I’m a learner for sure ).
Hope to play with you someday
AXE’ VOVO’
hi everyone,
i love the posts by vovo and mahgol, i have nothing to add to it!
i’m in a capoeira thread on couchsurfing.com and we have a similar discussion going, that i just wanted to share the last two posts of with you:
“Last year in my group in Valencia, came a girl from Istrael, of Cordao de Ouro and I saw perfectly the difference.I found her game very interesting and artistic respect to mine, but for me is very hard playing with regional capoeiristas, maybe it’s my limit.
If the roda is an un-official one, on the beach or in the park without contramestres around I can play just for fun with regionaleros, but if the roda is serious, one official….I avoid……”
“hola “frenzen”!
i know what you mean! “real” regional (“purists”) play a game that can be hard to get into – fast, scary, less “jogo de dentro”. not for me either…. but i think it’s everyone’s responsibility to try and match their game to your opponent’s – you try a bit of regional, they try slow down and engage a bit more for you – watch what happens! much more enjoyment and learning for everyone.
so not “your” limit – also “theirs” if they refuse to play angola, or angola style, or in any way adapt their game to you! it takes a lot of knowledge, courage and experience to be versatile.
but this crossover mentality is new in capoeira and difficult (not just in capoeira – many groups in other sports or art forms have difficulty sharing and “letting go of their identity”). i might be a bit of a hippy there!
but enough of me babbling, if you like these kind of discussions and thoughts and engaging in capoeira in a different way (not just physical i mean), check http://www.4capoeirathoughts.com!
axe
donana”
once again if i can i would like to state that this a global phenomenon that i see in a lot of art forms and teachings. i have worked for several bosses and everytime i changed jobs, my new boss wanted me to conform to HIS practice. when i had less experience of my own, i did listen to them too – hopefully now that i do have my own ways, i won’t see them (my ways i mean) as the holy grail either, like my old bosses before me!
and isn’t it exactly the same in religion, wars have been started over who’s wrong and who’s right and whose vision should be the one everyone has to follow. or as in art appreciation (or arists themselves) – if you’re a painter, or love painting, but are not into “cubism” for example, does that make you a “non-true artist”? everyone will pick from the big pile what fits their visions and preferences, and in my opinion that’s the way it should be and has to be respected.
i think in the end it’s about (money and) power. power corrupts. this might sound over the top and i’m not talking on a huge scale here, but there will always be “leaders” and “followers” – it’s part of the natural human psyche. it is so hard to be absolutely open-minded and free of prejudice! buddhists spend their lifetime looking for this!
anyway this thread is getting huge, it’s great! but hard to keep it all together in my head. i might have drifted off miles away. time for some reflection!
donana
To all Camarás in this thread (Vovô, Z, DonANa, Marreta, Mahgol, Espada, Canarinho, Gabi and Yuri),
Thanks for these amazing contributions! Please, keep discussing and sharing your thoughts and experiences.
Inspired by your discussions I wrote a post on the ‘politics of Capoeira’ and Paulo Freire’s concepts of education. Nothing really in details, but calling attention to his work, that I’m you can find in pretty much every language in a good library. It’ll be coming up soon.
Also I would like to invite you to the next events I’ll be holding classes, talks and playing as well, of course.
For those in Europe please be tuned to this website – http://www.cordao.se the event will be held sometime between April and May
For the keen travellers I’ll be holding the ‘Jogo Aberto’ an immersion event of one week, training, playing and discussing these issues with students and friends from different groups. For this one I’ll post something over the blog soon, but you can find details now on http://www.capoeira.org.au
Abraços para todos!
Eurico
Thanks for all your posts, Eurico! I’ve finally had time to actually sit down and read them properly, and it’s so refreshing knowing I’m not a freak for enjoying the “academic” side of capoeira just as much as the physical, lived-experience side. :)
Which brings me to what this post made me think, which was that I know you already said that they agreed to do the interviews ahead of time, but I wonder if there is sthg to the idea of not being afraid of research, but just not exactly caring for it? Just from my own experience, I’ve definitely had arguments trying to defend merits of the “intellectual” from a teacher or two, which in capoeira is often seen as useless, naive, irrelevant, airy-fairy, especially once you throw in the usual binary of booksmart vs. streetsmart (aka malicia aka fundamental concept of capoeira)! Just my 2 cents.
p.s. Have you ever done cognitive or linguistics theory? I’m taking a seminar that basically looks at cognition/linguistics/literature combined, and got approved to write my term paper on conceptual metaphors in capoeira!!
Joaninha,
As far as I know there is no such dualism – mind and body – in Capoeira. The folk wisdom present in the lessons of our Capoeira ancestors assure us that their practice was sounded in a strong philosophy. This behaviour of discriminating educated people came up recently as an attempt of a few to hold power. (I’m writing a small post on the ‘politics of Capoeira’ covering this issue as well)
In past times Carybé, Jorge Amado, Mario Cravo, and Pierre Verger, amongst others that I can’t remember right now, were constant in Rodas de Capoeira regardless of styles. Mestre Pastinha had his practice deep grounded in philosophical concepts; Dr. Decânio and Jair Moura wrote many books on Capoeira… So, in my view, this discrimination comes with the attempt of justifying unjustifiable practices in Capoeira today. Although, some times it might happen due to insecurity or lay prejudice of different areas of knowledge.
About your seminar, yes I have done one paper once that covered cognitive theory. These are some of the material I think it might help for a paper like yours:
- In portuguese you can find good material in Muniz Sodré’s books (Verdade Seduzida and Mestre Bimba: Corpo de Mandinga).
- In English you can find in Nestor Capeoira’s book (The Little Capoeira Book) and in Lewis’ (Ring of Liberation).
But I guess you know about all this already… Anyway, these are my 2 cents ;)
Thanks for your contributions!!
Axé!
Eurico
I agree that there *shouldn’t* be that dichotomy, just thought that some people see one and so maybe that mentality contributed to your problems in getting your research done. Also, I get the feeling that “philosophy of capoeira”, much of which comes from living and experiencing and progressing through capoeira for much of your life, is different from what we’d probably call “academic” treatment of capoeira.
I’ve been trying to get my hands on Decanio’s book for years! I haven’t read Little Capoeira Book or Ring of Liberation, but have Roots of the Dance-Fight-Game. What do you think of Mestre Acordeon / Bira Almeida’s book?
Thanks!
Joaninha
Joaninha,
I got your point, and I agree with it. It shouldn’t but it does. I don’t believe in this dichotomy, though. Not even in regards to academic knowledge and empirical experience in Capoeira; these fields are certainly different, but can be complementary.
I’ll send you Dr Decânios books in pdf format; they’re available to download so I think it’s not a problem. Mestre Acordeon’s book is really good and you might find something on the historical part, but the following parts of the book composes a novel. Ring of Liberation was written using semiotics, so it could be spot on depending on what you want. Nestor uses a lot of metaphors as well in an attempt to explain what you called ‘streetsmart’.
Axé! And thank you!
Eurico
Eurico
I’m a bit slow on the uptake on this thread – been tired from last nights Capoeira and drink! I haven’t been able to read everything yet but want to say something.
Firstly – I personally dont understand groups/masters/instructors that isolate their students or prefer that they dont play in other’s rodas! Why? Because that is the place to learn what no one can teach; the games between different groups are interestingly different in many ways. I do understand not training with other groups but this whole roda thing where it is just one group and one style – can become uninteresting and mind-numbimg!
Why a research on Capeira and social inclusion did not received any attention from those ’socially engaged’ Mestres? Some don’t see it as important others do. Did or do you have good relationships with these people? If they don’t know you or disagree with something about your way then what is in it for them?
Why it is so difficult to develop inter-style and inter-group cooperation in Capoeira? Is it so difficult? I think that the group interaction is important and as my master explained “Uma Mao lavar oltra” If someone visits me I visit them – not alone but with students – and with the passing of time we develop our relationship. I also make the first step and wait their return visit. Interaction and group visits take time and sacrifice but that doesn’t make it difficult I prefer to say “interesting”. London I can say has a great number of groups that visit each other and develop this open roda understanding. Not all people move in the same circles though so the ones I don’t see probably have their own circle of friends they exchange with.
I’ve run out of time but hope I have added something.
Simon
Mestre,
Thanks a lot for your contributions!
What amazed me was that this mestre I was visiting knew about my research and boasts himself a social inclusion project… But I guess if such endeavour is not done through his group, then it’s not valid. Either because the tool used – Capoeira – is not authentic enough or because in my case (academic and empirical) such endeavour requires more reflection and self-critic about to what extent it’s really effective.
I’m with you when you say that inter-group can be challenging and interesting at most times, not difficult. But in this case there was no cooperation at all, and I knew this guy, have been attending his classes in other events, have been chating with him for a long time… He said he was ok with the purpose of my visit and agreed in letting me conducing interviews during his event, but as soon as I got there, everything changed.
It was a good and rich experience though. Not by chance we have all these interesting contributions from many countries.
Axé Mestre!
Thank you once more!
Pingback: Free resources for Capoeira-related social inclusion projects | 4capoeirathoughts
Hiya,
I am coming quite late to this discussion and just would like to quickly comment on a few things related to the original post and questions.
Capoeira is a reflection of the world and the same principles apply as to any group. Capoeira is just as inclusive or exclusive as any other group or movement. Of course it has a history of resistance and social inclusion of marginalized members of an oppressive society, but so do many other groups. There are various power and social dynamics that come into play in these situations that you described. Asking to conduct ‘research’ puts you into a specific position of power. I am just guessing your comments about a non-Brazilian mestre may have inspired certain images of further loss of power. The response of the mestres towards you may then have been the polite way out of a specific loss of face for them. Of course, I may well be far off on this one. I typically try and see the different positions in situations like this. I have my personal philosophy of Capoeira and my personal motivations of why I practice and share my enthusiasm for this art form. But I also have to admit that I would never have been introduced to it if it was not commercial and if it did not have a market value. After all, I first got into contact with it in the UK, far away from its roots. Mestres have to make a living (and some may make a better living than others).
There are probably less styles today than 150 years ago, there are very simple evolutionary laws that have been applied to study the dispersion and subsequent loss of languages, cultures, customs etc. The same principles are most likely to apply to capoeira (actually one of the little projects that I would love to undertake if I have some time).
Today Capoeira is a complex and multi-dimensional social phenomena where our identities as practitioners, teachers and followers are invested, both at a personal and material(istic) level. This will create frictions and intergroup dynamics.
Followed the link and decided to weigh in. What I say *probably will not matter to anyone,* but I feel I can put just a little bit of input into a subject.
- Why a research on Capeira and social inclusion did not received any attention from those ‘socially engaged’ Mestres?
–Males. If they have people paying attention to them, then they’re being social enough to fulfill their goals. The people learning will talk about everything to their friends and peers, thus bringing about the social aspect. If any one thing can threaten to draw attention away from them, then their egos will being to shrink.
- Would all their students agree with their attitude or there would be at least a few people interested in an (inter-style) exchanging of ideas towards social inclusion?
–I chiefly train in a MMA school. The school specializes in Muay Thai and Ju-Jitsu. I took to the Muay Thai very well, but needed to learn how to move my body better. I decided to test out Capoeira as it’s much more “active” than, say, a run-of-the-mill martial arts school found in any small town. While I am not very good (or flexible), I FULLY ENJOY attending what classes that I can and from time to time I actually step away from a class having learned how to move my legs or feet just a little better. You want an exchanging of ideas? Try training under Muay Thai and Capoeira and try to merge those two radically different styles. If I want to and can do it, any other student of any other style can. (Of course, I’m training to fight and that gives me reason to learn as much as possible, but my point still stands.)
- Why it is so difficult to develop inter-style and inter-group cooperation in Capoeira?
–Males. Men are hard-headed when it comes to cohesion between what they view as opposition to their goals and the goals of others. Others would call it being on a power trip.
Let me state again: I train in two martial arts. Muay Thai and Capoeira. I am a perfect (not really, I’m only human. I’m just saying that for effect) example of how two styles can work together. If I can take two different things and want to make them work together, then two or more different Capoeira groups can definitely merge together under the Capoeira flag and work as a unit. This is why I will succeed in my goal, because I’m willing to learn, change, adapt and merge things into an all-powerful force. If a white guy with almost no sense of rhythm can actually learn like I have, then people sticking to a more traditional form of doing things can learn how to do different things as well. Or are they just scared of change?
I’m probably not going to revisit this comment, I just wanted to drop a line. If I’m totally off the mark with my comments, then forgive me. I just did and said what I felt was right. I’m quite passionate about what I do.